1 10 11 12  14 15 16 18
Awww, Steve, gimme a break! (g) If an American gives ... as per the etiquette books of the 1960s and 1970s.

Well, I'm not in Europe. In South Africa, in certain circles, formality was expected. In Afrikans universities, for example, university ... as "Dr", and they could never understand why surgeons who had trained in England insisted on being addressed as "Mr".

Good thing we've known each "forever" in cyber-years ... otherwise, we could be misunderstood!
As you say, you're not in Europe. Your comment with the convention the lady used on her name suggests that convention isn't the norm in South Africa. THAT in its turn suggests that Americans aren't as alone as we keep being told we are in using given/first/christian names at first meeting. Since I've been hearing that, usually in a disapproving, accusing tone, since the 1960s, I'm startled to learn it is untrue.

Thass all.
Cheryl
Well, I'm not in Europe. In South Africa, in certain ... had trained in England insisted on being addressed as "Mr".

Good thing we've known each "forever" in cyber-years ... otherwise, we could be misunderstood! As you say, you're not in ... I've been hearing that, usually in a disapproving, accusing tone, since the 1960s, I'm startled to learn it is untrue.

Steve did mention that he had been in correspondence with the lady for a number of years. I think that would make a difference.

The use of first names at first meeting is, in any case, dependent on circumstances. I was quite unnerved, when I first came to live in the USA, to be addressed by my first name by the bank employee that I spoke to when opening an account. Nowadays, that is probably commonplace in England too, but it wasn't back in 1985.
One of my friends here in Connecticut is Swedish, and she has commented on the way people in Sweden now use first names in those circumstances. She said that her parents found it quite shocking.

Fran
Students: Are you brave enough to let our tutors analyse your pronunciation?
That is certainly part of the name stock from which such names are drawn, but by no means the whole ... (region in France; doesn't match your pattern b) Kylie (popularised by Kylie Minogue, of course) Destiny (Destanie etc.) (abstract noun)

It is my theory that the popularity of names given by white American mothers can be directly linked to the names of characters in the American "soap operas". If a character with the name of "Orian" is written into "Days of Our Lives", I would expect a glut of Orians to follow.
I think it would an interesting experiment for a script writer to come up with a new name and follow the naming records to see the effect.

Black American mothers do not seem to follow this pattern. They seem to take one name - Tamika, for example - and build new variations on that name: Tammyika, Tamshika, Tamalika, etc.
That is certainly part of the name stock from which such names are drawn, but by no means the whole ... (region in France; doesn't match your pattern b) Kylie (popularised by Kylie Minogue, of course) Destiny (Destanie etc.) (abstract noun)

It is my theory that the popularity of names given by white American mothers can be directly linked to the names of characters in the American "soap operas". If a character with the name of "Orian" is written into "Days of Our Lives", I would expect a glut of Orians to follow.
I think it would an interesting experiment for a script writer to come up with a new name and follow the naming records to see the effect.

Black American mothers do not seem to follow this pattern. They seem to take one name - Tamika, for example - and build new variations on that name: Tammyika, Tamshika, Tamalika, etc.
Yes. And write The Plough (or the Plough, but that's ... the 2-syllabled adjective "learned") "smelt", "spelt", "spilt" and "spoilt", too.

Those are all variations that local publishers may tamper with, by the way, so it's not always safe to attribute them to an author's personal style if it's a transatlantic publication.

Yes indeed, and a lot depends on the particular publisher's house style, but "The Big Dipper" in the mouths of characters who are supposed tio be English sounds odd.
I wonder what the US publishers of Harry Potter did with the teapot Hermione was supposed to turn into a tortoise, but which she thought more like a turtle. But that's probably a subject for another thread, rather than one about names.

Steve Hayes
E-mail: (Email Removed)
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7783/
Students: We have free audio pronunciation exercises.
It's pud, not pudding.
(re 'Sidney' as a girl's name) Well, that's not too surprising. This newfangled popularity of 'Sidney' as a female name smacks of Hiberno-Britosupremacism(TM).

I can't let that go unchallenged! What does a fashion in naming have to do with supremacism?

What's the underlying reason for the fashion then? Eh? Eh?
It seems to me that this fashion is more prevalent in the US than in the British Isles, although it has certainly crossed the Atlantic.

I won't argue with you there. Hiberno-Brito-supremacism is a cultural attitude that is quite well-established in several AmE subcultures.
(a) an established Hiberno-Britic(tm) surname

That is certainly part of the name stock from which such names are drawn, but by no means the whole ... (region in France; doesn't match your pattern b) Kylie (popularised by Kylie Minogue, of course) Destiny (Destanie etc.) (abstract noun)

I don't think all of these are examples of Hiberno-Brito-supremacism. "Lorraine" strikes me as being an old-fashioned name. "Destiny" also seems slightly old-fashioned, sort of a hippie-era name. (There was a girl in my high school, probably born in 1969, named "Destiny".) But "Chelsea", "Brittany" and "Kylie" are all Hiberno-Brito-supremacist names, yes. Perhaps "Chelsea" was one of the earlier ones. Sure, "Chelsea" and "Brittany" are place names, and "Brittany" isn't in Britain or Ireland. But Chelsea *is* a British name and is associated with Britain. And Brittany sounds similar to "Britain", "Briton" and "British", has the -any suffix that is found in other Hiberno-Britosupremacist names, and anyway Brittany is closely associated with the Brythonic branch of the Celtic family which is itself closely associated with Britain. The Hiberno-Britosupremacist nature of "Kylie" is self-evident.
Some names formed in this fashionable way draw on the stock of traditional English-language girl's names. But, you say, we've ... of them might have many variants consistent with this vogue: Kathryn Katelyn (Caitlin reanalysed as Kate + -lyn) Madelyn Rosalyn

Different phenomenon. I have a great-aunt named Madelyn (her own Anglicization of "Maddalena", actually).
"Caitlin", with its bogus AmE pronunciation, is a good example of the Hiberno-Britosupremacist practice.
(b) a name ending in /i/ pronunciation-wise (for standard AmE)

Other patterns also have a certain vogue, e.g. * final /Il/ as in Cheryl, Sheryl

Old-fashioned name.
* final /lIn/, e.g. Jocelyn and numerous girl's names with -lyn(n)(e) suffixed.

Ditto.
* final /rIn/, e.g. Erin.

One of the earliest Hiberno-Britosupremacist names, "Erin" seems to have become voguish after World War II, as Irish-American war vets for some reason experienced a burst of Irish-nationalistic feeling.
* final /@n/, e.g. Megan, Raven, Reagan.

"Reagan" is obviously a Celtic name. In the US, if "Reagan" occurs at all, it's difficult to see how the parents could not have had Ronald Reagan in mind when naming the child, so that's a special case. But "Megan" is obviously Celtic in form. "Raven" may be another matter; it seems sort of hippie-ish to me.
(Final /@/ is also popular, e.g. Brianna, but this has been popular for centuries, so I don't count it as part of this new vogue.)

I consider "Brianna" part of the vogue. "Brian", a boys' name, like "Erin", became popular among Irish-American war vets (see above discussion of "Erin"). Nuff said!
Have you noticed that initial /k/, /S/ or /tS/ is also popular? For example, Kayleigh, Carly, Kelly, Kylie, Kerry, Cherie, Kelsey, Chelsea, Casey, Courtney.

These are all Hiberno-Britosupremacist names, except for "Cherie", which is now an old-fashioned name.
Kerry and other Irish names are popular, but (like Dempsey, which you noted) Murphy isn't.

Curious, that.
Django Cat typed thus:

That obnoxious minor Royal who made a prat of herself ... great British public to know what it is or something?

We trashed the Princess here (gosh, how time flies) in December 2002: http://tinyurl.com/2bfay

Thanks David. I learn from your posting there that I've got to my fifth decade without knowing Prince and Princess Michael of Kent are not the same people as the Duke and Duchess of Kent. How can I have missed this? How many of these bloody people are there?
DC
Site Hint: Check out our list of pronunciation videos.
Good thing we've known each "forever" in cyber-years ... otherwise, we could be misunderstood! As you say, you're not in ... I've been hearing that, usually in a disapproving, accusing tone, since the 1960s, I'm startled to learn it is untrue.

"America" is a big place, and so is the USA.
I have, at times, been surprised by the formality of etiquette in certain sectors of US society. But this varies tremendously. Some churches in the US produced "year books" listing members of their congregations, and they would list "Mr & Mrs Paul D. Robinson". That was more formal than what one would find in a similar publications in South Africa. But what surprised me was that there would be listings for "Mrs Henry J. Jones", with no husband in sight.

An equivalent South African publication (though there is no exact equivaltent, would be more likely to have something like Frederick and Margaret Smith. Some might even have "Rick and Peggy Smith", which is, of course, less useful to genealogists, leaving you to guess whether it is Richard, Frederick, Roderick or Archibald!
Such forms of address ARE used here, in formal things like wedding invitations, diplomatic receptions and the like, though in the former they are becoming less common nowadays.
One result of this discussion was that I got a bit worried about the people with the name Sydney or Sidney in my family history files. There are 9 with Sidney and 10 with Sydney among their first names. If you coulnt middle names, there are 12 with Sidney and 14 with Sydney. I had them all down as male but how did I know? But on looking more closely there were only 2 doubtful ones. Most of the others had either married females, or had other male names - Sydney William is not really likely to be female, I think.

But it did remind me that you can't assume that a person is male or female because of their name!

Steve Hayes
E-mail: (Email Removed)
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7783/
Show more