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i need help defining the difference between 'subjective relative pronouns' and 'objective relative pronouns'

For example:

subject

'The chef who won the competition studied in Paris'

object

'This is the approach taken by journalists, whom some consider to be objective'

can someone explain how and when the relative pronouns are the object

and when they are the subject. i just dont get it.

thanksinadvance

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Comments  
Anonymous how and when the relative pronouns are the object

and when they are the subject.
who is a subject; whom is an object. There are several steps to learning how to use them. Let's start with the first. You've got to know a verb when you see it, or this won't work, so be sure you know what a verb is before you even start to learn this.

Subject. WHO + verb

the chef who won the competition

the man who saw me leave

plumbers who fix pipes

the guy who was wearing the blue tie

the lady who gave Susan a lift home
people who are curious about it

Object. WHOM + non-verb

journalists whom some consider

people whom I know well

the guy whom you met previously
the lady whom Lucy admired very much
the girl whom nobody liked
an artist whom the critics praised

Those are the basics of Lesson One. Do you think you get it now?

CJ

P.S. The rest of the lessons deal with the exceptions.
Thanks CalifJim

i now understand 'who' is an subject and 'whom' is an object. And i know a verb when i see one,

but that rule aside, i realise i dont know how to tell the diiference between who or what the subject and who and what the object of a sentance is.

'the chef who won the competition' the chef is the subject of the sentance.
'journalists whom some consider' the object is some consider

I know that the above examples is right but i dont know why. The very words object and subject are lost on me. Object of what!

I hope i have explained the problem i am having so as to get the required anwsers

thanks CalifJim

please can you or anyone explain this to me...... like a child, thats probably insulting to kids
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Anonymousthe chef who won the competition' the chef is the subject of the sentance.
'journalists whom some consider' the object is some consider

I know that the above examples is right but i dont know why. The very words object and subject are lost on me. Object of what!
OK. Let's be a little more clear here. Those two examples are not sentences. They are only parts of sentences.

the chef who won the competition -- not a sentence.

The chef who won the competition insulted the judge's wife. -- a sentence.
_____

The subject is the person or thing that performs the action of the verb.
The object is the person or thing that receives the action of the verb.

Susan threw the chicken at her husband. Susan is doing the throwing. Susan is the subject. The chicken is what gets thrown. It receives the action of Susan's throwing. chicken is the object.

In the case of the chef insulting the judge's wife, the chef does the insulting and the wife gets the insult. chef is the subject. wife is the object. These are the subject and object of the main clause -- the subject and object of the whole sentence.

____

But what you are dealing with is not the subject or object of a main clause (as with the Susan and chicken example), but the subject or object of a modifying relative clause that begins with who or whom. This is the part in brackets below.

The chef [who won the competition] insulted the judge's wife.

So not only do you have subject and object for the whole sentence (the main clause), but you also have a subject and object of the embedded clause -- the relative clause who won the competition. (who represents the chef, of course.) who (the chef) is the subject, because it was who (the chef) that 'performed the action of the verb', that is, won. the competition is the object because that was what was won. So the whole sentence is almost like two sentences, one inside the other, like this:

The chef [ The chef won the competition. ] insulted the judge's wife.
The chef [He won the competition. ] insulted the judge's wife.
becomes
The chef who won the competition insulted the judge's wife.

______________

Here's one with whom. Remember that whom is an object.

The woman [whom the chef insulted] gave a prize to each child.

The woman did the giving and a prize was what was given. So, in the main clause, woman is the subject, and prize is the object. But in the relative clause, the chef did the insulting, so chef is the subject, and the whom (which represents the woman, of course) got the insult, so whom is the object. In fact, whom has to be an object; whom is always an object. It's just not after the verb, where objects usually go. whom (meaning the woman) is moved to the beginning. Here's how to show one sentence inside another for this example:

The woman [The chef insulted the woman.] gave a prize to each child.
The woman [The chef insulted her.] gave a prize to each child.
The woman [The chef insulted whom ] gave a prize to each child.
becomes
The woman whom the chef insulted gave a prize to each child.

Note how whom is moved to the beginning of the relative clause. That's not necessary with who.

CJ
Anonymousjournalists whom some consider' the object is some consider
Read the preceding post carefully and you will see why this is wrong. You don't have the entire relative clause for one thing.

journalists [whom some consider to be objective] -- not a sentence, but we can work with just the relative clause.

journalists [Some (people) consider these journalists to be objective.]
journalists [Some (people) consider them to be objective.]

some (people) is the subject, because they are doing the considering.
these journalists (or them) is the object, because they are being considered.

You are replacing the object with a relative pronoun, so you use the object form whom.

journalists [Some (people) consider whom to be objective.]

Moving whom to the beginning of the clause:

journalists [whom some (people) consider to be objective]
journalists whom some consider to be objective

CJ
The dog ate the paper.

1. Always find the verb first. In this case it is "ate".

2. Ask yourself who or what ate the paper? This question will always help you find the subject of the sentence. In this case the answer is "the dog".

3. Then ask yourself who or what did the dog eat? This question will help you find the object of the sentence.

This only works for transitive verbs.

I'll explain your examples in a minute: first digest this.
Students: We have free audio pronunciation exercises.
Your examples are not complete sentences. Yes, it's true they have a subject, verb, and object, which usually means it's a complete sentence; however, it's not. Let's try to understand why.

It's true "the chef" would be the subject of your sentence, but it's not a complete sentence. Let's look at "who won the competition".

"Who won the competition" is a relative clause which is describing the chef. No, it's not the chef who has red hair. It is the chef who won the competion. So, you see, the relative clause describes the noun it follows, which in this case would be "the chef". When anything is descibing a noun, it is considered an adjective. So, relative clauses act as adjectives, even though they contain a subject, verb and object.

If I say who won the competition, it would be a complete sentence, asking a question. True?

But if I say the chef who won the competition, this would not be a complete sentence because the person I'm talking to or writing to is still wondering what the chef who won the competition did.

Does this help?
I have briefly read through all the replys but i find it difficult to read, take-in the infomation from a computer screen, concentrating on one gives me a head ache.

But i have copied & printed and i just wanted to say thanks CalifJim and to the anonymous user/s.

I'll reply to let you know if this makes clear my doubts about the subject and object of a sentance, complete sentance and or a phrase and then how the relative pronouns relate

cheers
Thanks CalifJim, i think ive got a better understanding of relative pronouns - objective/subjective

'The chef who won the competition insulted the judge's wife'

So the object of the relative clause is 'the competition,' and the object of the main clause is the wife. It being dependent on what part of the sentance you are refering to (relative clause or main clause).

Does this mean the main clause supercedes the relative clause, i.e:

Q) find the subject and object in the following sentance.

'The chef who won the competition insulted the judge's wife' (whole sentance)

The answer being:

the subject, the chef (he insulted the wife) (initiated the action)

the object, the wife (being insulted) (receiving the action).

Therefore the relative pronoun is just adding infomation to the proceding noun. The answer being different if the sentance (phrase) in question was 'The chef who won the competition'

the subject still the chef but the object now the competition?
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