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I read some articles and at long last understood that 'as if' belongs to the same group of sunjunctions as 'I with','it's time' and 'as though' do.
Now it seems that it would be rediculous to say 'he behaves as if he *** crazy'. Aren't we discussing about something untrue, uncertain or impossible? Hypotherical situation, which doesn't or can't happen at the present, at the same time the presons behaves; therefore we assume that if he behavED so it would happen.

Isn't saying that as ridiculous as to say 'I wish I *** here'. And still they are considered grammatical?

Please tell me if my thoughts approach realityEmotion: smile
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Hello

I'm a mere English learner and don't know much about English and linguistics. But I completely agree with Somerset Maugham's saying that the English subjunctive mood is in its death throes, and the best thing to do is to put it out of its misery as soon as possible. If NES people stop the use of the subjunctive mood completely, English will get much, much easier for us non-Indo-European language speakers to learn.

paco
I'm a mere English learner and don't know much about English and linguistics. But I completely agree with Somerset Maugham's saying that the English subjunctive mood is in its death throes, and the best thing to do is to put it out of its misery as soon as possible. If NES people stop the use of the subjunctive mood completely, English will get much, much easier for us non-Indo-European language speakers to learn.


Well said...
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maverick88:

I agree. I can't answer your question though because I don't know. I would say that if I were talking about the general behaviour of a particular person, I would say "He behaves as if he were crazy."

On the other hand, I may say "he behaves as if he is crazy", because I might be saying that he is behaving as though it were true that he is, in fact, crazy. He is behaving as if the hyperthetical and untrue situation "he is crazy" were not actually hyperthetical or untrue, but were true. Thinking it true, it possibly could be correct saying either.

If I were talking of a person who behaved in a certain way in the past, I would say "He behaved as if he were crazy".

To the others:

True, the subjunctive mood is confusing, but so are most rules in the English language. Every rule almost without exception is broken in some way or another. We could help the subjunctive mood along to its death, but we could help a whole heap of other rules along to their deat as well - it would make it much easier for non-English speaking people (and, let me tell you, for most English speaking people as well).

I'm sorry but I can't agree that we should help any part of the English language along to its death on account of it being confusing.
If NES people stop the use of the subjunctive mood completely, English will get much, much easier for us non-Indo-European language speakers to learn.


And I will be out of a job, Paco.
Hey, I got a concise and logical explanation by Mr.P:
'He is behaving as [he would behave] if he were crazy'. That's exactly to the point, in my opinion.
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Maverick wrote:
Hey, I got a concise and logical explanation by Mr.P:
'He is behaving as [he would behave] if he were crazy'. That's exactly to the point, in my opinion.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

{I searched and searched but I couldn't find Mr P's explanation}

Well, that's just dandy that Mr P has cleared this up.

What you might not have noticed is that this covers but one specific language situation. What of the other billions of examples or potential examples of language that don't fit so neatly into this little pattern.

Google lists 139 examples for "as if he is crazy". Here are a few examples;

1. Analyze That Comprehensive Movie Review
... Robert DeNiro plays a mob boss who gets released from prison in the custody of
his psychiatrist, Billy Crystal, by acting as if he is crazy. ...

2. NovelGuide: Bless Me, Ultima: Character Profiles
... places. Bones: Bones is one of Tony’s friends. Tony and the others are wary
of him because often he acts as if he is crazy.

3. In some scenes, he mourns his father, in others anger is present,
and in still others Hamlet acts as if he is crazy.

In this very thread, DJ Simon says; "I may say "he behaves as if he is crazy". And he is right.

It's really quite a specious argument to set out the conditions for one language situation and then state that all other language situations must follow that pattern. This type of illogic has gotten PGs in lots of trouble before.

The subjunctive is not at all confusing. Japanese [and other countries] children who learn English in a natural fashion are not the least bit confused by the subjunctive, nor are they confused on how to use it. But people who learn it from the rules of prescriptive/traditional grammar are terribly confused.

I think that pretty well says it all!
Thanks for those examples, JT. I'll add them to the 'As if' thread Maverick referred to, with an attempted explanation, when I'm next online.

MrP
i would like to know how to explain easily the structure of the subjunctive mood, I have to make a presentation, and I don´t have any axamples about this, if here is someone who wants help me on it, i would be thankfull with them forever

(email address edited out-- MM)
THANKS
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