re: Teenagers page 5

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Nonsense. You prove differently.
You think all the white teenage girls were wearing bobby sox and all the black teenage girls weren't? I'm not ... the black community, but it was a general American trend, not a "white" trend, unless you equate "American" with "white".

Nonsense. You've got a tentative grip on the seat of your pants.
You know, Coop, it occurs to me that one problem here is that AUE has always seriously been lacking in ... don't know, but when you start apparently seriously posting things about "the negro (sic) community" I have to wonder, Coop.

And you seriously post about an era you weren't around in and have no first-hand experience about with your usual "what I haven't seen doesn't exist" perspective.
I'll stick with "negro community" in that context. That's what they were: negro communities. They weren't black communities, or African-American communities. What they are today would be described differently.
I suspect that we do have a number of African-American lurkers. I urge I'd like 2005 to be the year that AUE becomes a truly diverse newsgroup, without of course sacrificing posting quality.

So, recruit. Go post some invitations in newsgroups that are likely to have African-American contributors.
Neutral? Since when is using "neutral" a condition to aspire to when you want to write descriptively? You want "neutral"? Leave out all adjectives and make all sentences Pablum for the reader.

Your idea of descriptive writing is "TCFKAN", but not mine.
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OED traces "Zoot Suit" to the forties. The earliest cite ... the Zoot had spread to cats and mice by 1944.

It's always an interesting choice in writing about the past to decide which term to use: African-American, black, or negro. ... of "community" the term should - in my opinion - reflect what the community would call itself in those days.

Never easy. I noted that when you used 'negro' you qualified it by saying " (the term used then) ".
I try to use a term that is current and acceptable, but it is damned difficult to know what *is* current and acceptable. I don't think there has ever been a term universally accepted by the group concerned, let alone others who might be interested in using an appropriate term. There seems to be a schism at the moment among the Romani / Romany / Gypsy community with each of those three terms (and, for all I know, other terms) having its proponents. I don't like prescriptivism but in this area of language I wish there was a way of signifying what is and is not acceptable at a given moment. But as far as I can see, there isn't even transpondial agreement among black people on what they prefer to be called.

John Dean
Oxford


At BRHS, they were Capizios.

Capezios.

Actually, we called them "flats" most of the time (but the term "flatties" wasn't unusual). Capezio(1) was a brand (wasn't it?), and there were many other brands. The shoe stores we (the girls, that is) went to were Mary Jane's(2) and Baker's, and they each had their own brand names. The last time say, in 1961 that I bought "flats" in high school, the price was probably $3.99. Maybe even $2.99. They weren't overly expensive.
(1) I know that Capezio made ballet slippers (and tap shoes?); they probably made "street shoes," too, but I don't think any Capezios were sold in regular (free-standing) shoe stores. And I doubt that anything labeled "Capezio" was what I would have called "inexpensive" in the late 1950s/early 1960s. (By the way, "ballerina slippers" were not quite the same as Capezio "ballet slippers"; and neither were the same as "flats.")
(2) "Mary Jane's" shoe stores are not to be confused with "Mary Jane's," a type of shoe. "Mary Jane's" were flat, and had a single strap across the foot. Not all of them were black; they came in many colors and types of material, inluding patent leather. Mostly, they were for young girls, but there have been some "adult" type Mary Jane's over the years. Incidentally, they were not "flats" "flats" did not have straps.

"Mary Jane's" are also not the same as "Mary Jane" candy, usually called Mary Janes. They've been favorites of mine since I was a kid. Those and "squirrels."
Finally, "Mary Jane" should not be confused with a certain other product you may be familiar with.
(Tony: BRHS? What's the "BR" for? Bull Run?)
Maria Conlon
OBediting: I've edited this post a few times for clarity. It may now contain some inexplicable errors.

Capezios.

Actually, we called them "flats" most of the time (but the term "flatties" wasn't unusual). Capezio(1) was a brand (wasn't it?),

Yes, but I'm not sure if the word was used to mean the brand or generically to mean any shoe of that style. All I know is that the girls used the word.
(Tony: BRHS? What's the "BR" for? Bull Run?)

Broad Ripple High School. I spelled it out earlier in the thread, but figured that either the initials or the name would be equally unimportant in later references.
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M-W Online: Main Entry: home=B7com=B7ing Pronunciation: 'hOm-"k&-mi(ng) Function: noun 1 ... to reign over the= proceedings. It was a big deal.

Sounds like the tradition is a thing of the past?

Aren't they all?
=20
dg (domain=3Dccwebster)
In Danish we use the word "teenager" meaning "13-19 year olds". In Danish 12 is tolv, 13 is tretTEN, 14 ... achZEHN, 19 neunZEHN. The prefix to these suffixes, in all languages, mean 3..9, so probably the pattern is common Germanic.

Yes; the same pattern, the words for 11 & 12 being exceptional, is found in Gothic, Old English, and Old Norse, and persists in their modern descendants, including Dutch and Icelandic beside those already mentioned. In most of the modern Romance languages there are two patterns, one covering the numbers from 11 to 16 (or 15, in Spanish & Portuguese) and the other from 17 (or 16) to 19, but in Romanian, as in the Slavic languages (which may have influenced it), the 'teen-words' from 11 to 19 are all regularly formed.

Odysseus
Actually, we called them "flats" most of the time (but the term "flatties" wasn't unusual). Capezio(1) was a brand (wasn't it?),

Yes, but I'm not sure if the word was used to mean the brand or generically to mean any shoe of that style. All I know is that the girls used the word.

Ah.
(Tony: BRHS? What's the "BR" for? Bull Run?)

Broad Ripple High School. I spelled it out earlier in the thread, but figured that either the initials or the name would be equally unimportant in later references.

I looked at the earlier posts, and found that I had actually read the post in reference, including the name of the school.

Isn't it the short-term memory that goes first? If so, the best way to look at this is that I'm aging normally.
Maria Conlon
(Please insert the Woody Allen quote about immortality. I've forgotten it.)
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