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'Eve' means something different than night. 'Halloween Eve' has a perfectly unambiguous meaning. It is uttered and understood by people who aren't necessarily dolts.

People need a name for the 30th of October? I don't think so. As someone pointed out, "Halloween" itself means ... and only 4,000 or so uses of "Halloween Eve." It does exist, as a term, but it's not comparatively widespread.

I wouldn't expect it to be very popular. Halloween in the strongest sense refers to the evening of October 31st for it's in the evening that kids go trick-or-treating (at least Back When I Were A Kid(tm)). Moreover, in those uncivilized regions of the US where Halloween is traditionally an occasion for destructive juvenile mischief, that mischief generally doesn't take place till nightfall.
Oh, and in Postwar American RP (PARP) "Halloween" is pronounced /[email protected]'win/, with the "hollow" vowel. Incidentally, I've verified that the "hollow" pronunciation extends into certain regions of Northern New Jersey. Where's Young Joey?
On the contrary, the emphasis on "that" merely underscores the throwawayness of "now"; therefore, it requires a comma.

You go, girl! I'm with ya'! I'm truly amazed at the responses of some of the writers here who are ... in print. Come to think of it, "amazed" is not the right word. "Shocked" is. But so it goes ...

I tend to write as if my own voice was in my ear. So, my writing imitates my own speech cadence. In the "Now that was beyond belief" line, my internal voice doesn't pause in the slightest after "now", but "that" comes out with emphasis, a pause after, but no comma. If we all differ, it is probably because the internal voice is different. It's not a writing thing as much as it is a sound thing.
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Donna Richoux filted:
As someone pointed out, "Halloween" itself means "All Hallow's Eve" and means the night before All Saints Day (Nov. 1). ... and only 4,000 or so uses of "Halloween Eve." It does exist, as a term, but it's not comparatively widespread.

I get 1040 hits for "Christmas eve eve" (including 115 that are "christmas eve eve eve" or longer), and many of those have something like "December 23rd" nearby, so it's safe to say that most people think of "eve" following any calendrical form as meaning "the day before"...by Zipf's law, one can suppose that the farther one gets from a familiar point of reference, the less frequent the occurrences become..
cf:
24,600,000 ultimate
364,000 penultimate
4,640 antepenultimate

166 preantepenultimate

or:
30,200 quaver
3,630 semiquaver
1,310 demisemiquaver
3,330 hemidemisemiquaver
(N.B. many of that last count exist mainly to marvel at the idea that such a word can exist...I suspect it's seldom actually used by those who talk about the lengths of notes)..
Incidentally, how long has it been since people of each pondality stopped spelling "Hallowe'en" with an apostrophe?...r
Yes, yes just like that ghastly!

You're incorrugatable. Donna said "fine", not "ghastly", and these weren't synonyms last time I checked.

True about the synonym part, but but a million and a half times is a bit more than has been my experience.
Donna was merely acknowledging a trend, and trends are not set by those most cognizant of the finer aspects of communication. However, Donna is right in that the unusual and as yet non-standard usages usually win out, as will this one, I guess. The masses, you know ... NTTAWWT, IG.
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
Of course "eve" itself has two meanings**, but once it's ... one meaning. "Emotion: poolparty Eve" means "the day before Emotion: poolparty".*** Period.

I disagree. To me "Emotion: poolparty Eve" means primarily 'the night before Emotion: poolparty' (or, rather, 'the night on which Emotion: poolparty starts, which is prior to the day of Emotion: poolparty'), but can be extended to mean 'the day before Emotion: poolparty'.

I should've given the meaning as "the evening or the whole day before Emotion: poolparty".
If someone asks me what I'm doing on New Year's Eve, I assume they don't want to know what I'm ... but the evening and night; but on the morning of the 31st, I might say "Today is New Year's Eve."

Indeed.
Adrian
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Yes, yes just like that ghastly!

You're incorrugatable. Donna said "fine", not "ghastly", and these weren't synonyms last time I checked.

You conveniently snipped the part where Donna disagreed with you. That's not nice, but then, you are you. All you present now is her admission that the less than expert masses are winning. I will concede that that is happening, no thanks to people such as you.

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
You go, girl! I'm with ya'! I'm truly amazed at ... the right word. "Shocked" is. But so it goes ...

I tend to write as if my own voice was in my ear. So, my writing imitates my own speech ... probably because the internal voice is different. It's not a writing thing as much as it is a sound thing.

Well, when I read that, it means that it was beyond belief as of a time specified by the "now". I'm sure that when saying it, you put the emphasis on the "that", so that it is not read the way I did it. The only way to indicate such emphasis is with a comma after the "now" to separate it from the rest of the sentence. After all, it has nothing to do with the rest of the sentence, just as the "well" at the start of my paragraph doesn't have anything to do with what follows either.
I'm still shocked; SHOCKED! But then, not everyone is expert at these things, as many have proven.
Actually, I'm suspecting that you and Matti are pulling my leg, as anyone reading the explanations given by me and some others should clearly see the difference a comma makes in the "now" usage.
Neither of you could be that (insert your own gently deprecatory word here) to not see the difference.

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
You're incorrugatable. Donna said "fine", not "ghastly", and these weren't synonyms last time I checked.

You conveniently snipped the part where Donna disagreed with you. That's not nice, but then, you are you. All you ... less than expert masses are winning. I will concede that that is happening, no thanks to people such as you.

There's no need to be unpleasant. I didn't snip anything that was relevant. My point, which Donna made for me, was that things which look strange and "wrong" come to look familiar and "right" after a certain time. I think you owe me an apology and I also think you're the sort of chap who won't mind admitting it.
Matti
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You conveniently snipped the part where Donna disagreed with you. ... that is happening, no thanks to people such as you.

There's no need to be unpleasant. I didn't snip anything that was relevant. My point, which Donna made for me, ... think you owe me an apology and I also think you're the sort of chap who won't mind admitting it.

Donna's post, including her previous one and your answer to it, presented in entirety:


You do see the difference between these two, right? Now that we're here... Now that is good. It's the second one that demands a comma.

I agree, but then I'd give it a pause in speech anyway to distinguish it from the "Now that is ... me to assume that, like me, you wouldn't have used a comma in the original example is that right?

The original being R F's?
Now that was beyond cruel and uncalled-for!

No, I would liken that to "Now, that is good," not "Now that we're here..." I'd put a comma. "Now, that was beyond cruel..."

The other kind is almost indivisible. It reminds me of some similar words in Dutch that are used to introduce clauses, like nadat, zodat, and totdat. You can't break up "Now that" in "Now that we're here...", it might as well be one word. Notice that it introduces a clause, whereas the other "now" prefaces an entire sentence.

More examples.
Now that you're finished, we can...
Now that that's settled, why don't...
Now that they're married, I suppose they...
Other kind:
Now, that's no way to behave.
Now, that is possible.
Now, that can be a problem.
I suppose I have to acknowledge the general comma-less trend and the social peer pressure to drop commas on every conceivable occasion. Once we've seen "Now that's no way to behave" a million and a half times, it looks fine.


It was not my intent to be unpleasant, merely blunt, and what I said was the truth. Donna sees the difference between the "with a comma" and "comma-less" versions, just as I do.
You snipped that part and presented only the part that I concede namely that the battle is being lost, and not for a good reason.

Rest assured that this is not personal it is merely a comment on English usage, yours in particular this time.
As for being an upright chap, well, I try to be. In this case, if I have offended you, I apologize. Maybe I stated my case too bluntly, but I speak the truth, as you should have seen to start with.

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
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