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"US Ambassador to Turkey" is his title. Compare it ot ... b) "The US president, George W. Bush, stated.." (job desctiption)

Can we stop this "title"/"job description" thing, please? We're talking about grammar. Grammar doesn't care about such things. Look at ... the different permutations, it's very, very obvious what the differences are.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -

For future reference, when you say 'Grammar' do you mean ...

The cold dead hand of tyrannical Law carrying an immutable ruler fixed in some Golden Age by men wiser than God by which all written English is measured and judged and with which all 'offenders' are beaten into submission?
Those conventions by which written English improves and maintains a high standard of comprehensibility and fluid readability subject to the natural evolution and development of English itself?
Hello All: To me, a "the" before the "US ambassador" ... province of Hakkari bordering Iraq was due to pilot error.

Do you think you do need a "the" here in front of "US jets" in order to specify these are the US jets in Turkey's province rather than anywhere?

"the" is unnecessary and would tend to make the sentence ambiguous.

Consider the two versions:
"...an airspace violation last week by US jets in Turkey's southeastern province of Hakkari..."
means that the airspace of the province was violated by US jets;

"...an airspace violation last week by the US jets in Turkey's southeastern province of Hakkari..."
could be read as meaning that the jets were based in the province and that they had violated airspace elsewhere.

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)
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To me, a "the" before the "US ambassador" in the ... province of Hakkari bordering Iraq was due to pilot error.

Do you think you do need a "the" here in front of "US jets" in order to specify these are the US jets in Turkey's province rather than anywhere?

No. Absolutely unnecessary. It could have been US jets based anywhere in the world but that just happened to be flying over Turkey. There are no US jets based in Hakkari Province.

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. "Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away."
Can we stop this "title"/"job description" thing, please? We're talking ... different permutations, it's very, very obvious what the differences are.

I think there is a "title/job description" thing, and I think we did this a few months ago about Australian ... as a title. So while we are all comfortable with "Dr George Brown said" and "The Doctor, George Brown, said

But that is /not/ describing the man by his job title; it is not describing the man at all. It is using the sentence to talk about what the person in that position did, and not about the man himself. The guy's name is parenthesised, meaning it can be removed from the sentence who he is is not important; it's the job that counts:
"The guy in charge of washing bottles washed the bottles," is not altered in any vital way by adding ", Sid,".

And:
"The government declared a national emergency," is not enhanced by adding a parenthesised list of the names of every member of the government.
Don't assume that because the guy's name is thrown in as an aside, the sentence is about him personally, because that would be a wrong assumption. If the subject of the verb is the job, then the clause is about what the person (whoever it might be) holding that job did, and not about an individual, even if one is named.
Looking at it any other way is incorrect, and adds complexities that are completely unnecessary next thing you know, it will do the round of the style manuals, and loopy Yanks will be screaming in groups like this that that is the only way to look at it.
Hello All: To me, a "the" before the "US ambassador" ... province of Hakkari bordering Iraq was due to pilot error.

Do you think you do need a "the" here in front of "US jets" in order to specify these are the US jets in Turkey's province rather than anywhere?

Your analysis is correct as far as it goes (and it could also mean "the US jets, rather than the other countries' ones"), but it looks as though the intent was to use the term generically so no "the".
Students: We have free audio pronunciation exercises.
?The? US Ambassador to Turkey Ross Wilson stated on Monday ... province of Hakkari bordering Iraq was due to pilot error.

Do you think you do need a "the" here in front of "US jets" in order to specify these are the US jets in Turkey's province rather than anywhere?

No. That's not what the sentence says. The jets were passing in error through Hakkari airspace but were not otherwise connected with the province.
"In Turkey's province" doesn't work very well in your sentence. It seems to imply that the country has only one province. "In the* (Turkish) province" or "in Hakkari" would be better.

*because already mentioned
But it's pointless talking sense to you, so I won't bother.

If only that were true!
"them", of course.

Hey, hey. hey. I never expressed any sense of superiority.

It's a matter of tone. The way you said what you said expressed your sense of superiority. One doesn't have ... come right out with it: "Elegance is an attitude". Anyone who needs to be told wouldn't understand without the words.

The thing is, I really didn't feel a sense of superiority. And I don't. But since only I know how I really feel, and since you have formed your own view on it (which happens to be wrong), there doesn't seem to be much point arguing about.
If we're playing cod psychology, I'd note that feeling others to be superior is a sign of feeling inferior. Maybe that's the problem - deep down you believe AmE to be inferior!
I don't.

On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)
My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon
Students: Are you brave enough to let our tutors analyse your pronunciation?
Nick Atty (Email Removed) wrote
If we're playing cod psychology, I'd note that feeling others to be superior is a sign of feeling inferior. Maybe that's the problem - deep down you believe AmE to be inferior!

You're right about this type of psychology: it's for the fishes.
I don't.

I think it's probably as difficult for a Brit not to as it is for an American not be a racist. It comes with the cultural baggage that we cannot seem to shed.
What does being in denial mean? It must be an automatic admission of what one is denying.

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain
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