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Not really. From the top of my mind , the famous "Moon Sonata" starts with both thumbs on the black keys.
NTTAP.

?
Yes, but its symbol is +, whereas the other fingers ... '1' (which is the left index finger for guitar players).

To be fair to guitarists, the thumb of both hands has a very different role, especially for the left hand ... fingering notation reflects that. We pianists just treat the thumb as another finger because of the nature of the keyboard.

"Fingering" for the piano inevitably includes thumbs, but when I was a child the fingering symbols were + for the thumb and 1-2-3-4 (1 = index). So evidently the thumb didn't count as a finger. Nowadays the symbols are 1-2-3-4-5 starting with the thumb.
Alan Jones
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When playing Spanish guitar, the left thumb is not a finger; the right one is..r

Yes, but its symbol is +, whereas the other fingers are named ./../.../.. which shows quite a differentiation. Piano players treat thumbs equally and call them '1' (which is the left index finger for guitar players).

We also number the index finger 2, the middle finger 3, the ring finger
4 and the little finger 5. That's why I find such phrases as "thirdfinger" for "ring finger" misleading.
Not really. From the top of my mind , the famous "Moon Sonata" starts with both thumbs on the black keys.

NTTAP.

?

Not that that's always possible, as in your example of the Moonlight Sonata. But it is one of the general principles of piano fingering; you use the thumb on a black key if no alternat(iv)e fingering would be less awkward.
I'm sure my questions must seem funny, but "how it feels" is the kind of information you can hardly find ... like "large intestine" and "small intestine" - a dictinction well known, but to grown-ups rather than children. Now it's clearer.

What is "clearer"? That English speaking kids are brainwashed by nursery songs into the notion that the thumb is not a finger?
From your OP, it seems you've already made up your mind about the stage of human development when the English speakers acquire the 'wrong' perception about the thumb.
I'm sure you already know that what's anatomically correct may not be semantically accurate in various languages.
From a different perspective, I believe you feel almost the same way about the English thumb as the people who have 12 different words for "snow" when they hear a speaker of a language who doesn't have that many words for "snow": lack of precision and inability to perceive different nuances, which were "taught in kindergarten".
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When playing Spanish guitar, the left thumb is not a finger; the right one is..r

Yes, but its symbol is +, whereas the other fingers are named ./../.../.. which shows quite a differentiation. Piano players treat thumbs equally and call them '1' (which is the left index finger for guitar players).

And in blues guitar, the left thumb is a finger. (Bad technique in classical, of course.)
Mike.
You can make the same case about each finger.
But I don't believe that composers ever think of convenience for the interpreter. Rather the opposite: think of Liszt transcedental studies, or Paganini's caprices for violin; there is nothing 'convenient' about them.
You can make the same case about each finger. But I don't believe that composers ever think of convenience for the interpreter. Rather the opposite: think of Liszt transcedental studies, or Paganini's caprices for violin; there is nothing 'convenient' about them.

YACSOMATCMB. I'll bet some of Bathory-Kitsz's stuff is challenging too. And generally they don't bother to suggest a fingering.
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However, some people do insist just that, that the word ... this came about, to the extent that it ever did.

I'm particularly interested in how the difference is perceived. Is it something that people will notice once they start learning ... for now") or will you correct the child, just like you would if he had called his elbow a knee?

It would depend, but more toward your first possibility than the second. It's not a critical or very confusing mistake for that age, so the correction would just be the normal adult murmuring.

Child: I hurt my finger!
Adult: Which one? Let me see.
Child extends thumb.
Adult: Oh, your thumb, yes. (Etc.)
When we speak of the fingers generally, we include the thumb; as the five fingers. But we often make a distinction.

Thank you very much for this one, my Collins told me likewise. So, if you ask the Standard Medical Question, it's safest to phrase it "How many digitsdo you see?" Emotion: smile

Well, no. "Digit" is a rather technical term that I would not expect everyone to understand instantly. Plus, if anyone "holds up fingers" they would hold up the normal one-to-four fingers and only include the thumb for five. It's just the custom.
I think the "first finger" is associated with counting that is, not just naming the fingers, but when you count sheep or whatever, you start by associating the first object with that finger. That's "one".

Anyway, it's absolutely normal to speak of all five fingers on one hand. I say this in case this thread has confused you further. Examples on the Web:
we went past an old man who was sitting in a wheelchair tapping his bald head with each of the five fingers of his right hand.

It is as if we were to put the five fingers of our right hand into a warm, cotton glove
He shot out his left hand, the five fingers seizing the web
I'll add it to my list of Subset-Whole Problems, where ... (the four fingers plus thumb). These cause endless circular arguments.

Oh, I can see it's just like "rĂªka" in Polish, which you could translate as arm, forearm, hand, palm, arm+forearm+hand, etc., depending on the context.

Quite possibly. Is there any tradition of people saying fiercely to each other that they shouldn't use "reka" to mean one those things? That "everybody knows" the palm, say, is not the "reka" that people who use it that way are stupid or from the wrong province or something?

Probably you mean there is often confusion over which one *is* meant.

Well, the problems over this are not as big and important as you might have been led to expect. The arguments I remember about this seem to be somewhat childish and smart-alecky "Ha, ha, you can't say that because the thumb isn't a finger, dummy." People who want to prove someone wrong often seize on something trivial.
You asked about folklore. Now that I think of it, there is a riddle that drives this distinction home:
Q: If you call your thumb a finger, how many fingers do you have on one hand?
A: Four. Calling a thumb a finger doesn't make it one.

The same riddle is done with donkey-tail-leg, or other four-legged beast. It's less controversial that way.

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