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"Pedophile" means lover of children.

Whereja get that from?
OED has ''paedophilia An abnormal, esp. sexual, love of young children.'' Full stop.
By your definition most parents and grandparents are paedophiles.
John Dean
Oxford
"Pedophile" means lover of children.

Whereja get that from? OED has ''paedophilia An abnormal, esp. sexual, love of young children.'' Full stop. By your definition most parents and grandparents are paedophiles.

Well then. What does OED say about "Rushtown"?

Good luck and good sailing.
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It does seem worth pointing out that children at the receiving end of sexual encounters with adults are indeed victims.

Have you ever been approached by a 14-year-old who put his hand down the front of your pants and said "I want that in me"? I have.

You must have kept still for quite a time. Why? I would have been on the other side of the room before his topmost phalanges had passed my waistband.
If I grant his request, is the kid a victim? Am I a criminal?

You have problems with the answers to those questions? I would discuss them with a lawyer. Seriously. One day you're going to need one.
At what age does a "child" become an "adult" when it comes to having sex with someone older? Most European countries have an age of consent of 16 (http://www.ageofconsent.com).

It varies. Legal ages of consent simply set a minimum age as a guide. European countries vary a lot, as do countries around the world. In France the age is 15, in Spain it's 13. Not that I recommend announcing to a Spanish Father that you're planning to have your way with his 13-year-old daughter.
At what age does a "child" become sexually functional and able to make rational decisions about his/her sexual partners? Does the law recognize this? Certainly not in the U.S. with our universal age of consent of 18.

It's variable. Again, a minimum age is set as a guide. If you think the minimum is wrong, channel your energies into campaigning for change.
Consider the pervasiveness in our culture of songs such as "Jail Bait" and "Hey Little Girl (With A High School ... that teenagers have sexual drives. This is contrary to the kids' interests and contrary to their mental and physical health.

Our laws don't deny it, and most legal systems (certainly the UK system) will treat sex between two underage people far more leniently than sex between one under and one over.
We deny teenagers sexual outlets. Try THAT as a definition for "child abuse."

No we don't. But we are cautious about letting the older perves prey on the younger children.
If our courts would permit a "necessity defense," Michael Jackson could use it and win, hands down. It was obvious ... "Look who I'm sleeping with, nyahh!" If that crossed the line into sexual activity, it's nobody else's business but theirs.

What crap. 'Necessity defence'? 'Your Honour, he *so* wanted me I just had to screw him, even though the very thought was repugnant to me'. I'll wait for the trial to see what evidence is produced, but we already have sworn testimony as to MJ's behaviour.
I'm sure you've seen Jordy Chandler's deposition over at the Smoking Gun: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/mjcivil1.html

MJ denies them. Well, if someone made untrue allegations like those about *me* I would sue their ass off (pardon the expression). I wouldn't pay them off with thirty million quid. What innocent party would pay out that kind of money to a blackmailer?

John Dean
Oxford
"Pedophile" means lover of children.

So it does, and in common usage it is as illogical as "homophobe", because it is often used to mean just the opposite. The media often call people who murder young children "paedophiles". Really, they would more accurately be called "paedophobes".

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
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Rushtown wrote on 24 Apr 2004:

You didn't cause it a preset program kicked in, and if you were lucky, you were attracted by the opposite sex.

That's a value judgment I don't want to make.

Given the society you live in, that's not a "value judgment." Those that conform to the dominant behaviour including manifested thought or desires are always treated better.
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Martin Ambuhl wrote on 25 Apr 2004:
Rushtown wrote on 24 Apr 2004: That's a value judgment I don't want to make.

Given the society you live in, that's not a "value judgment." Those that conform to the dominant behaviour including manifested thought or desires are always treated better.

I agree that this is generally true in all societies, those who conform to what the society considers the norm are almost always treated better than those who do not conform, but I am unwilling to agree that thinking this is "lucky" or "unlucky" (and, therefore, "good" or "bad") is not a value judgment. Based on my own 60 years of life experience, "normal" behaviors, thoughts, and desires are not always preferable even though those who manifest them are almost always treated better.

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"Pedophile" means lover of children.

So it does, and in common usage it is as illogical as "homophobe", becauseit is often used to mean just ... from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stopuk

As I pointed out in another post, "pedophilia" does not mean "lover of children," and has never meant that."Pedophilia" was coined as a psychiatric term. "Homophobia" was coined in 1971, for "a person characterized by homophobia." "Homophobia," in turn, was coined in 1969. I would be surprised if it was coined as a psychiatric term, and expect it has meant since the very beginning what MWCD11 gives as its meaning, "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals." It parallels the word "negrophobia," and like that term, may conceivably be adapted to psychiatry: I have read of one case in which a man was diagnosed as having negrophobia: He had such an irrational fear of black people that he could not function at his job, and, as I remember the results of the case, was put on disability as a result.

Similarly, some people might have such a fear of homosexuals that they might be considered to be suffering from a phobia, a type of mental disorder, but that is certainly not what the word "homophobia" ordinarily means.

In the sense of "-phobia" as it is applied to phobias, a "pedophile" could not be a "pedophobe."

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
If someone's mental condition is such that he cannot avoid committing such offenses, there are institutions in which he can ... as if you get to go home if you obtain an acquittal using the defense of mental disease or defect.

Before wondering where he should wind up, will you allow him a trial? Even if you don't appreciate his talents as a performer, you'll agree he is innocent until proven guilty, tra la, tra la.
Charles Riggs
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Before wondering where he should wind up, will you allow him a trial? Even if you don't appreciate his talents as a performer, you'll agree he is innocent until proven guilty, tra la, tra la.

Well, not really. "Innocent 'til proven guilty" is a legal concept allocating the burden of proof.
That is, in the Anglo-American legal system, the accused does not have to prove he is innocent. If the prosecution does not put on a case that proves guilt beyond a reasonable doubt then the defendant has the benefit of the above presumption, and he can refuse to put on any evidence and is still entitled to a "not guilty" verdict. (or more accurately, "not proven", a verdict allowed in Scotland)
Now why do I mention all this? Because in a discussion outside court a person is not innocent til proven guilty. I presume Michael Jackson guilty more than one accuser, a personality and predilections for children, his own statements, and the cuddling with Gavan on the British TV special. Don't respond that I have to presume him innocent etc. I don't unless I'm a judge or juror, and I am neither.
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