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Hello
Please verify the following points.
1 * if a verb (non finite) ie verbal has an object then we either use its gerund/ infinitive, else we use its de verbalized or base noun form.

Thus we can conclude that.

Eg. 'I didn't see him playing' is an incomplete statement It's better to say- I didn't see him play.(since there is no object)
Or Complete sentence would be: I didn't see him playing football (geurnd+object)
Is that right?
2. In above sentences, word 'play' is working as a noun not as a verbAnd since "play" is one of those words which is both noun and verb we can use its base form to represent noun ie. Playbut when it comes to words which are strictly verbs like 'decide' then we have to use its gerund form with object to make any sense in the sentence
What I'm saying is:

Eg. I didn't see him play (noun)

makes sense since play is a noun as well as a verb

But I didn't see him decide is wrong because decide is not a noun thus a meaningless sentence.
Right?

3. For words which are both noun/verb do they also have deverbal noun form? If yes when would that be required if we can simply use the word(noun form) itself when noun is called for?


4. In short the i need to understand the exact rules/conventions of using verbals, de verbals and base noun(when word is both verb and noun).

Thankyou
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You are on the wrong track, I'm afraid.


I didn't see him play and I didn't see him playing are both possible.

I didn't see him decide and I didn't see him deciding are unnatural , but the reason is simply that 'deciding' is not something that we can normally observe.

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Hello thanks for replying


* if a verb (non finite) has an object then we either use gerund or infinitive, that's why it's wrong/incomplete to say

Is this correct?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are trying to say. Perhaps somebody else can help.

I don't understand what you are trying to say, either. 😁 However, the rule is simple. After a verb of perception (see, hear, feel, etc.) in the active voice, both the bare infinitive (play) and the present participle (playing) are correct: I didn't see him play/playing.

The bare infinitive can never be used after a verb in the passive voice: He was seen to play.

CB

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Actually i mistyped it.

Let me rephrase it


Infinitive, gerunds, participle (verbals) are used when non finite verb has an object.

Eg. The committee took decision considering(gerund) the policy(noun/object)

De verbals are used when non finite verb does not have an object

Eg. The decision is taken after the consideration (de verbal) (no object)

Is this right, if yes then i will ask the follow up question?

anonymousDe verbals

What is "de verbal"? Your vocabulary is strange.

anonymousIs this right, if yes then i will ask the follow up question?

We need to get on the same page with some grammar basics.

English has some patterns relating a word which is a verb to a noun with a related meaning. These patterns are mainly from other languages upon which the English lexicon is based (Old French, Latin and others.)

The noun consideration is related to the verb consider.
The noun flattery is related to the verb flatter.
The noun emulsion is related to the verb emulsify.
The noun severance is related to the verb sever.
The noun enjoyment is related to the verb enjoy.

Play, walk, plant and judge (along with many other words) can be a verb or a noun.

Verbs can have complements and objects. This includes the inflected and non-finite verbs (infinitives and participles.)

Nouns can sometimes have complements, but not objects.

Your example sentence has two verbs (considering and took) and three nouns (committee, policy and decision.) Considering is a non-finite verb.

The committee, considering the policy, took a decision.
The committee took a decision after carefully considering the policy.

The old grammatical term gerund, can be confusing. It's better to use this term strictly in the case where the present participle is used as a noun (no modifying adverbs or objects). If there are modifiers and complements call it a clause.

Running a complete marathon requires a lot of training. (clause -> verb + object)

Running is good exercise. (gerund)


So back to the oroginal question: What I'm saying is:

Eg. I didn't see him play (noun) Play is a verb here. Compare: I didn't see the play. Play is a noun here.


But " I didn't see him decide is wrong because decide is not a noun thus a meaningless sentence. You are wrong here. The sentence is correct, although it is difficult in practice to observe such an abstract action. Compare with something more common: I didn't hear him sing. I didn't see him grow up. Sing and grow up are verbs.

Thank you so much sir for explaining in detail. Understood all your points. Its a long reply but I request you to please help me out with this thankyou in advance. (I will start a new thread after this)


This where i read about Deverbal noun


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deverbal_noun#targetText=From%20Wikipedia%2C%20the%20free%20encyc... .


Also shared below is an article explaining verbal, de verbal, gerund., in this it says nouns formed by adding suffixes (tion, sion etc) are ‘de-verbal noun’ not normalisation. Which further confused me.


https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/7d52/bde8fa47bf8a08f20c0943764a0c26fc1df0.pdf

  1. So this is what i wanted to say earlier

* Verbs--finite/gerunds/participle can have direct objects but normalised verbs (implementation, decision etc) cannot have direct objects


Eg. Its hard deciding the answer

Its hard to take decision


Right?



  1. From eg. above

I saw him play football

I saw him playing football


I know both are correct since verbs and gerunds both can take direct objects (which is also mentioned in your answer) , also that-- play is a verb and playing is a gerund.


My question:

  1. Is there any difference in meaning of the two sentences?
  2. Also since verb can take direct object why use gerund?



  1. For words which are both noun/verb (you have also given many egs above) do such verbs also have normalised noun form?



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anonymousThis where i read about Deverbal noun

There is basically no difference (in grammatical usage) between an ordinary noun and a noun that has some relation to a verb. Nouns function as nouns whether its a deverbal noun or not a deverbal noun.

So clear up your confusion. Just know how nouns are used.

anonymousnormalisation

That is not the correct word. I think you meant nominalization. This is the process of creating a noun from a word that is another part of speech.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominalization

anonymous but normalised verbs (implementation, decision etc) cannot have direct objects

Correct. Nouns can never have a direct object.
It does not matter if the noun has been formed from a verb (nominalized from a verb) or not.

Nouns can have complements:

The decision [ to replace all the computers with new ones ] was taken last week.

Note that not all verbs can take a direct object. These are intransitive verbs.

anonymousEg. It's hard deciding the answer.
It's hard to take a decision

The first is not natural English. We do not "decide an answer".

These are good. In the first and third sentences, there is a content clause (also called a "noun" clause) which is the complement of the verb "decide." In the second sentence, that clause is the complement of the preposition "on."

  1. It's hard to decide what we should do.
  2. It's hard to take a decision on what we should do.
  3. Deciding what we should do is hard.
anonymousI saw him play football.
I saw him playing football.

Both are correct sentences. There are two forms of the verb "play."
1. Play is a verb (infinitive)
2. Playing is a verb. (present participle)

The meaning is about the same, except that the second emphasizes that the action "playing" occurred over a time period and you saw him during that time. We used these forms in different situations. Here are examples:

My great grandfather died last year. He loved sports and liked to play football. When I was a child, I saw him play a few matches. I can't remember how many, though.
Where is Jimmy? 
Oh, he must still be in the park. I saw him playing football there a few minutes ago.
anonymousFor words which are both noun/verb (you have also given many egs above) do such verbs also have normalised noun form?

Probably not. They do not need one. The same word is either a noun or a verb, depending on the sentence.




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