I have just bought a map in the new Ordnance Survey Explorer (2.5 inches/mile, or 4cm/1 km), Sheet No 297. (This new series of maps recently brought out by Ordnance Survey is an excellent addition to their range, by the way). Using it, I have been on a walk along the north bank of the River Wharfe, some 8 km north of the Leeds northern boundary. Shown on the map is "Rougemont Carr", at grid position 297483. This is also annotated in an ancient script as "Rougemont, remains of". The use of an ancient script on an Ordnance Survey map indicates a site of historic interest.

Can anybody tell me what a rougemont is? Who is likely to have built this fortification? And why did they build it? What purpose did it serve? The Oxford Encyclopedic English Dictionary is no help. A seach of the web using Google has found just one reference:-
http://www.oldtykes.co.uk/places.htm
However, this reference tells us much about the abandonment of the rougemont, but nothing about its construction and original use in its heyday.The rougemont stands at the top of a steep escarpment on the outermost bank at a sharp bend in the River Wharfe. If the surrounding trees were chopped down, one would have a clear view from the rougemont for approximately 1.5 km downstream and the same distance upstream. Because of the steep bank, the rougemont would be very difficult to attack from the river itself, but the earthwoks in the rear look extremely vulnerable.

I therefore started to wonder (but I emphasise my ignorance of the subject) whether the purpose of the rougemont might be to defend against a river attack. The only specialists in river attacks that I can think of are the Vikings (eg their attacks by sailing up the River Seine in France). Is it possible that the rougemont is a Saxon defence against the Vikings? If anybody has any information, I would be grateful.
Another strange thing I found on my new map is the marking of the Euro Constituency boundary between North Leeds and Harrogate constituencies. The boundary follows the course of the River Wharfe, except for grid position 288455, where it deviates to take in half a field (with no houses) north of the river. It seems that the Leeds Euro MP is responsible for everything south of the river, plus half a field and a few sheep north of the river at this point. Is this:-
a. European Regulations gone crazy once again?
b. Human error by a mapmaker accidentally typing the wrong coordinates into his/her computer?
c. A deliberate error by Ordnance Survey to catch plagiarists of their maps?
Richard Chambers Leeds UK.
1 2
Can anybody tell me what a rougemont is? Who is likely to have built this fortification? And why did they build it? What purpose did it serve? The Oxford Encyclopedic English Dictionary is no help. A seach of the web using[/nq]Exeter was the Romano-British country town of Isca Dameo;uorum—the most westerly town in the south-west of Roman Britain. Mosaic pavements, potsherds, coins and other relics have been found, and probably traces of the Roman walls survive here and there in the medieval walls. It is said to be the Caer Isce of the Britons, and its importance as a British stronghold is shown by the great earthwork which the Britons threw up to defend it, on the site of which the castle was afterwards built, and by the number of roads which branch from it.

Exeter is famous for the number of sieges which it sustained as the chief town in the s’uth-west of England. In 1001 it was unsuccessfully besieged by the Danes, but in the following year was given by King £thelred to Queen Emma, who appointed as reeve, Hugh, a Frenchman, owing to whose treachery it was taken and destroyed by Sweyn in 1003. By 1050, however, it had recovered, and was chosen by Leofric as the new seat of the bishops of Devon. Tn TO6R.

after a siege of eiehteen days. Exeter surrendered to the Conqueror, who threw up a castle which was called Rougemont, from the colour of the rock on which it stood. Again in 1137 the town was held for Matilda by Baldwin de Redvers for three months and surrendered, at last, owing to lack of water. Three times subsequently Exeter held out successfully for the king ...

More at http://46.1911encyclopedia.org/E/EX/EXETER BOOK.htm

Michael West
Melbourne, Australia
I have just bought a map in the new Ordnance Survey Explorer (2.5 inches/mile, or 4cm/1 km), Sheet No 297. ... The Oxford Encyclopedic English Dictionary is no help. A seach of the webusing Google has found just one reference:- http://www.oldtykes.co.uk/places.htm

(snip)
That webpage makes it perfectly clear that "Rougemont" is a proper name. There is no such thing as "a rougemont". "Rougemont" is just the name of that fort.
Another strange thing I found on my new map is the marking of the Euro Constituency boundary between North Leeds ... accidentally typing the wrong coordinatesinto his/her computer? c. A deliberate error by Ordnance Survey to catch plagiarists of their maps?

Intriguing. It may be that the euro boundary was set before a minor amendment was made to the county boundary. If someone has an old OS map of the area they could check.
Adrian
Students: Are you brave enough to let our tutors analyse your pronunciation?
I have just bought a map in the new Ordnance Survey Explorer (2.5 inches/mile, or 4cm/1 km), Sheet No 297. ... tells us much about the abandonment of the rougemont, but nothing about its construction and original use in its heyday.

Maybe a pointer here: on a site about Yorkshire fortifications http://yorksforts.netfirms.com/section%20f%20to%20i.htm it's surmised that Rougemont was the residence of the Lords of Harewood prior to the building of Harewood Castle in the 14th century.

Is this the same Rougemont? The listings for the two fortified houses are:
/start quote/
Harewood
SE 321457
Harewood House
Fortified Manor
14thC
de Aldeborough, Redmayne, Gascoigne
de Aldbro' : Azure, a fess argent between three cross crossletts or. Redmayne : Gules, three lozenge cushions ermine tasselled or. Gascoigne:Argent, on a pale sable a luce's head erect, couped, or.

The strongly fortified manor house of Harewood Castle was built on a rectangular plan c1365 mostly by Sir William de Aldbough, {on the estate he had acquired from Robert de L'isle,} possibly as a pele tower which developed in an unusual way. The license to crenellate was granted to Sir William in 1366 by Edward III.
Harewood Number 2
SE 296463
Weeton
called Rougemont
Enclosure with large outer bailey. Appears to have been earlier dwelling of the lords of Harewood.
/end quote/
There's also a page
at http://www.geocities.com/percyfamilyhistory/yorkx.html about a Norman Yorkshire family, the Barons Percy, which included a William de Rougemont:
/start quote/
Alan de Percy, 2nd Baron de Percy (Magnus Alanus).
The son and heir of William de Percy was born in 1069. Alan issued charters to Whitby Abbey confirming gifts made by his father in Yorkshire and Lindsey and adding gifts of his own. He was a benefactor of St Peter's hospital York. He sired an illegitimate son Alan de Percy who became a renowned soldier. Alan married Emma de Gant and died in
1120. His widow with consent of their son William gave land in WoldNewton to Bridlington Priory. There were three other sons, Walter Baron of Rougemont, Geoffrey de Percy, Henry de Percy, Robert de Percy and Gosfrid de Percy who was Abbot of St Mary's at York. William de Percy 3rd Baron de Percy and son and heir of Alan. Married Alice daughter of Everard, Baron de Ros. He died in 1133.
/end quote/
If these are references to the right place, my suspicion is that you ought to be looking for info on Norman castles built as part of the subjugation of the northern lands, and which were abandoned by the 14th century.

Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 21 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs)
Google has found just one reference:- http://www.oldtykes.co.uk/places.htm

(snip) That webpage makes it perfectly clear that "Rougemont" is a proper name. There is no such thing as "a rougemont". "Rougemont" is just the name of that fort.

On re-reading it, I see to my embarrassment that you are quite right. My apologies.

I don't believe that this could possibly be true. It would be equally illogical for the county boundary to have been set in this way in the early 1970s when North Yorkshire came into existence (in the system of counties that replaced the three
Ridings).
Incidentally, the nearest road bridges to the field in question are approximately 2.5 km downstream, or 7 km upstream. Furthermore, there is no road to the field in question - you have to walk there. It is therefore unlikely
that the same farmer would own two fields either side of the river at this point. So the boundary is unlikely to have been set with the deviation in order to accommodate an individual farmer's property entirely within one county.
Furthermore, the deviation is half a field, not the complete field. The farmer who owns the field would undoubtedly have made a complaint if one half of it were in West Yorkshire, and the other half in North Yorkshire.

In some ways, this reminds me of what I have seen on Michelin maps of Spain. There is a little "island" or "enclave" of Spain on the French side of the French/Spanish border, at a place called Livia (Michelin Road Map No 443). I suppose there must be some historical reason for this anomaly. Within Spain itself, there are occasional small enclaves or "islands" of one province just
over the main border, enclosed by the neighbouring province. For example, Ademuz, a little enclave of Valencia isolated from the rest of the province by perhaps 6-8 km, bounded by Cuenca and Teruel provinces. In Wales, under the pre-1970s county system, Flintshire came in two halves, completely split in two (to a distance of about 15 km) by the neighbouring county of Denbighshire. And for the first 30 years or so of its existence, Pakistan consisted of a western and an eastern part, separated by about 2000 km. The eastern part subsequently became the independent state of Bangladesh.

Richard Chambers Leeds UK.
Intriguing. It may be that the euro boundary was set ... an old OS map of the area they could check.

I don't believe that this could possibly be true. It would be equally illogical for the county boundary to ... western and an eastern part, separated by about 2000 km. The eastern part subsequently became the independent state of Bangladesh.

In the same way that there is/used to be, a little land 'island' marked ' Flintshire (detached)' on our maps.
Mike

M.J.Powell
Site Hint: Check out our list of pronunciation videos.
In some ways, this reminds me of what I have seen on Michelin maps of Spain. There is a little ... a place called Livia (Michelin Road Map No 443). I suppose there must be some historical reason for this anomaly.

I've been there! Llivia (note spelling) is not too far from our French home - we made a detour especially to drive through it this summer when going up towards Andorra, intrigued by its oddness. There's very little indication of the change of state as you drive through what is really a large village. The town signs give you some clue, but you might not notice it if you weren't paying attention.
However, the language on shop fronts and road signs changes to Spanish, and the cars are Spanish registered. Much of the town is given over to apartments for use during the skiing season. I presume the money changed as well in the past - they must be pleased with the introduction of the Euro.
My understanding is that this part of France belonged to Spain at some time, and was transferred under a treaty in the 17th century, but the beurocrats somehow forgot this village, which consequentially stayed in Spain.
David
Within Spain itself, there are occasional small enclaves or "islands" of one province just over the main border, enclosed by ... western and an eastern part, separated by about 2000 km. The eastern part subsequently became the independent state of Bangladesh.

David
I say what it occurs to me to say.
==
The address is valid today, but I change it periodically.
In some ways, this reminds me of what I have ... suppose there must be some historical reason for this anomaly.

I've been there! Llivia (note spelling) is not too far from our French home - we made a detour especially ... large village. The town signs give you some clue, but you might not notice it if you weren't paying attention.

Sorry, I meant to post the web site
http://www.llivia.com /

David
I say what it occurs to me to say.
==
The address is valid today, but I change it periodically.
Furthermore, the deviation is half a field, not the complete field. The farmer who owns the field would undoubtedly have made a complaint if one half of it were in West Yorkshire, and the other half in North Yorkshire.

I don't see why. Many boundaries cut across fields, gardens, buildings...
In some ways, this reminds me of what I have seen on Michelin maps of Spain. There is a little ... in two halves, completely split in two (to a distance of about 15 km) by the neighbouring county of Denbighshire.

Actually, Flintshire was in three parts. Old county maps of the north Cotswolds were even more complex.
Do a Google search on "exclaves" and you'll find info on lots more such places and even their classification according to type.

Adrian
Students: We have free audio pronunciation exercises.
Show more