The Saxons are having computyre problemf, so I am looking for etymologists here.

A link with Brahma of the Indo-European tribes is seen in IE brih "praise.expand" > Tocharian bramn.kte "Brahma god", Persian /Sanskrit braman(i)ya "reverently", Russian / Polish /German bram "ship top-mast" for admirals' and state flags, OSwed bram "state.pomp" and OE breme.

(quote)"bréman; part. brémende; p. de; pp. ed; v. a. [bréme celebrated] To celebrate, solemnise, make famous, have in honour; celebrare, honorare:-Ðæt hie ðæt hálige gerýne bréman mǽgen that they may celebrate the holy mystery [i.e. the sacrament], L. E. I, 4; Th. ii. 404, 27. Á brémende ever celebrating, Exon. 13 a; Th. 24, 20; Cri. 387. We ðec, hálig Drihten, gebédum brémaþ we celebrate thee, holy Lord, in our prayers, Cd. 192; Th. 241, 17; Dan. 406: Menol. Fox 186; Men. 94. Bodiaþ and brémaþ beorhtne geleáfan preach and make famous bright belief, Exon. 14 b; Th. 30, 21; Cri: 483. DER. ge-bréman."(end quote)

"Breman maegen" (in line 3 of quote) suggests the Persian magi priests, "revered". Perhaps the Saxons and Celts were generic brahmins as "praisers". "Drihten" in line 4 sounds a bit suspicious, too. What say you?

This etymology is not in the AHD or the OED ; where did you get it from? Also, AIUI word-initial PIE /b/ became Germanic /p/, so deriving breme from *brih- doesn't work.

I'm not sure how "Drihten" is suspicious. What do you mean exactly?
Hi Alienvoord,

I googled "bram" /brahm/ which I found in Ger. dict., and found:

JSTOR: Germanic Etymologies
In German: 'ich habe (mir) zugemessen, zugeteilt' > 'ich habe (etwas mir) Zu- ... Closely related are OE. breme '(high) famous, noble,' OSw. bram 'Staat, ...
links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0026-8232(191401)11%3A3%3C315%3AGE%3E2.0.CO%3B2-0 - Similar pages
.I then followed up other dicts. with that starting point. It seems that b did not>p in this case , as "premium" is not from"bram". The semantics of Ger. bram as "top-gallant"< Fr. galonner "trim with braid,binding" as in admirals' and state flags. OSw."state.pomp" is seen in SW. pl"as bram meaning "plush binding". Persian flags had gold braiding with binding of jewels, as in Pers.bramaniya "reverently". Persians and Scythians were in south Russia. Polish bram as "high crane. top of goal-post" fits OE breme. The Sutton Hoo ship-burial with jewellery has all the 3 elements above, as in this:

General information about Sweden...

There are more ancient English coins found in Sweden than there are in England, and over 90% of all the coins found in Europe from Baghdad and surroundings have been found in Sweden (Gotland to be precise).

..To Ibn Fadlan's friends this story must have been horrifying, as they were educated Muslims. .. One of Ibn Fadlan's most interesting stories is about a real Viking burial which he witnessed in the city of Atil (placed a bit south of Bulgar)..at the bend of the Volga. This was a larger city where Swedes met with Turks and other people from the south.

According to him the dead person's ship was brought up on shore and was surrounded with fetishes of wood. The body was clothed in its finest clothes, placed on cushions in a sitting position in a tent which was built in the middle of the boat. .. Afterwards they would throw a large heap of dirt over the ashes and on top of it all they put a wooden pole on which they wrote the name of the dead man and the name of their king.

Ibn tells us further: "When they arrived in this harbour (Bulgar) they left their ships on the shore and brought with them meat, bread, milk and nobid (an alcoholic beverage) and went to a high wooden pole with a carved head. Around this pole there were other smaller statues and behind them other large poles. The merchantman goes forward to the large pole in the center and then he gets down on his knees and puts his head against the ground and says: 'O, my god, I have been traveling a long way and I have brought so and so many slaves and swords. Now I bring you these offerings.' This said, he puts what he has in front of the wooden pole and says: 'I wish that you send me a merchant of great wealth who will buy on my terms without questions.' If the business is good he returns and sacrifices animals; if not, he brings other offerings to the statues and asks them for help." (end quote).

The "dryhten.drihten" word as "Lord" suggests Goth. triu. IE deru as "tree.oak" of Druids.

They have been implicated with Brahmins.

John Welch
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OK, I'm not sure where to look here. Could you please give me the source that links "breme" with "Brahman"? I'm very skeptical.

It seems that b did not>p in this case , as "premium" is not from "bram".
I'm not sure how that's relevant.

wikipedia traces "Brahman" to a root "brh", which is not a PIE root, but doesn't go further than that. Also doesn't cite any sources.

Pokorny has Old Irish "brahmán" - magic priest - but that would seem to be a coincidence.
Here are some quotes:

The name is derived from the root brih meaning “to grow” or “to expand”. ... brahmin: the first caste in the ancient Vedic social system of priests and ...
www.storytellingmonk.com/ref/glossaries/b.htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages

"Brahman is derived from the verb-root brih -- to expand; hence Brahman implies ... One of the sacred and secret books of the Brahmins; an Aranyaka is a ...
www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/br-bt.htm - 59k - Cached - Similar pages

* Brahman - (Yoga): Definition

Brahmana / Brahmin - A Hindu priest. The highest class in the Hindu caste system. ... Brahman In Brahman, the root word "brih," (meaning "to grow, increase, ...
en.mimi.hu/yoga/brahman.html - 33k - Cached - Similar pages

* Brahma - (Yoga): Definition

Brahman: God the formless. Derived from the root brih, "to grow" or "to expand". ... Brahmarishi: title meaning 'wise amongst the b r a h m i n s'. ...
en.mimi.hu/yoga/brahma.html - 45k - Cached - Similar pages

Encyclopdeic Theosophical Glossary, Br-Bz; Theosophical U Press

Brahma (Sanskrit) [from the verbal root brih to expand, grow, fructify] The ... it is also the name of the sacred beverage drunk by the Brahmins and the ...
www.theosociety.org/pasadena/etgloss/br-bz.htm - 69k - Cached - Similar pages

"Gods And Heroes Of The Bhagavad-Gita" A - G

(*brih, to expand, to grow. B.G. 58). Brahmana (often Anglicized as BRAHMAN or BRAHMIN)

The highest of the four castes into which the social classes of ...
www.theosociety.org/pasadena/gods-bg/gh-bg-ag.htm - 61k - Cached - Similar pages"

The Celtic link with Brahmins has been much discussed, including the Turoe Stone of Co.Galway in

Eire which has the form of a Shiva linga stone. Danu river-goddess of Brahmins became "DNiester,

DNieper and DON" rivers of Scythians, and "DANUbe" river, and "DANAan" gods of Eire.

_J Koch .Advanced Welsh Studies. UWales. Evidently IE dialects carried some IE religion, and the

Celtic dragon of Wales is evidence of that.


ChimeraHere are some quotes:

brih is not a Proto-Indo-European root. I assume that it is an Indo-Aryan root. If OE breme is related, it means the Anglo-Saxons had contact with the Indo-Aryans? Or something. I find this hard to believe, altho admittedly my BCE European history is shakey.

What's important to keep in mind is that the existence of two words with similar sound and meaning proves nothing. You have to show their relationship with systematic rules .
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The quote above about Swedish Vikings in Baghdad is part of the story. The "Danu" rivers are also. Scythians of IA tribes, and fellow Kamboja tribes, were in the Pamir region (north of Afghanistan) of mythic Mount Meru the home of Brahmin gods. Hurrians in the Caucasus 1400 BCE evidently had a Brahmin leadership, from deity names recorded in a treaty. Scythians moved west and raided Poland in 6th cent and were in Hungary by 450 BCE where Celts were then present. Mithradates ("gift of Mithra") was a Persian king of east Black Sea and Crimea 1st cent BCE. Sanskrit /Persian braman(i)ya means "reverently"..etc., as in my 1st post. Scythian dragon , bird and griffin design is identified with Norse church door-frame carving, and Sutton Hoo jewellery of Saxon England. The Tauri tribe of Scythians were pirates in the Black Sea, and Polish nobility last century identified with Scythian cavalry . My theory is that such pirate-cavalry Scythian elites moved west on the Baltic to Jutland of the Saxons. "Skythes" and "Sachsen" seem to have a common origin of IE skua "cover.> flay a skin, skewer, scythe. seaxe knife". Skuathie was a Norse giant ancestress, and skandieren "to scan" seems to be "Scandinavia". Sakasthenes and Sasanians in Persia seem to link with Scythians. Scythians and Kambojas were "degraded kshatriya" warriors who "did not honour the Brahmins". This seems to centre on Danu who killed Vritra dragon, a Brahmin, and Danu was then reduced in India but honoured by steppe-tribes who evidently mixed Brahminism with tribal gods. Thus chiefs and druids probably were "bram /breme" in a generic adjective sense. Probably, Danube was also "bram". Perhaps that was a waltz?

Well I can't help you with much of that. I do know that Sanskrit brahmā ब्रह्मा is not of Indo-European origin. And Saxon is probably from the PIE root *sek- "to cut".